Neil Yorio, V.P. Lighting Research – Agriculture, BIOS Lighting and former NASA Life Sciences Lab Group Research Manager …
33 Comments
Great info, but Mr Yorio never answered the question about target DLI levels for different periods of growth. Would have liked to have heard his thoughts on that.
I know the University of Mississippi’s research found that 1500 PPFD provided the fastest growth/highest rate of photosynthesis. That would represent a DLI of 64.8 if run for 12 hours (which I’m assuming it must have occurred during by listening to Mr Yorio’s points here about balancing the DLI between Veg and Flowering cycles).
Would be interesting to hear of his research at NASA found similar light levels to be optimal as well though.
Photobiology in 8.5 minutes by Neil Yorio's compadre at NASA- Prof. Bruce Bugbee, Utah State University and Apogee Instruments ( PAR meters) Ready to grow indoors, greenhouse? O:) Enjoy- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gHOJQmYFW1A
What is the use of lighting science, CMH, plasma, HPS, LED to the cannabis grower? For most, $$ or nonprofit or low-profit community. Once grower settles on WHERE-open field, greenhouse or indoor then for $$ grower it is ECONOMICS or risk. To the grower, this means YIELD in terms of biomass (weight) and marketable traits such as terpenes. All light sources have a COST- sunlight is not free, the land on which cannabis grows is not free. Now grower must calculate yield against CAPEX and OPEX of each component as a system. Lighting is energy so indoor or greenhouse ( is glass, plastic free?) must be measured. In an economic analysis done by Newbean Capital for indoor horticulture, the study claims OPEX 28% due energy costs and 22% for servicing CAPEX debt. Therefore, the calculation in a legally or politically ambiguous environment grower must choose light source or geography to suit acceptable the risk /reward on the basis of time. If one is well capitalized or has access to resources like economic labor, market channels then the costs are at least known, then the size of operations ( Canopy, Tilray, et al) is scaled to targeted market share. Being scientific means it does not matter if grower chooses Broad spectra as opposed to narrow 'Pink', it is to use Light Science to predict in a shifting economic environment how CAPEX and OPEX gives a grower an advantage against competitors or in plant speak- pests O:). Growers observe LED pricing( broad spectra or not) in terms of the Newbean Capital as retail bottom out in terms that they need to calculate their survival. Tilray, Canopy, Aurora have, do you or can you? A word from the wise is expensive but what is your life worth, right? Peace
Next contender, plasma? Broad light is best? Pink ( red blue) ok, Green better? It's cheaper not better… need a PHD to prove it? Where's the proof? Growers care about profit. So greenhouse is ok for plasma but where is the proof that cannabinoid or terpene production is higher? Legalization removes the risk premium that the prior generation of growers took to get $4000/pound in 2014. Legalization however screwed up has removed some barriers to investors to turn cannabis into a commodity where EFFICIENCY is QUEEN. Therefore in Colorado price has dropped 60% in 3 years and the same elsewhere- Oregon, Washington. Think tomatoes, tobacco. Hemp grown in Canada is $500 per acre, think cannabinoid is far behind? Aurora ( Canada) production cost is $1.28 per gram, dry weight from state of the art greenhouse production in high volume. Aurora goal is $0.75 per gram within the new future as another 400000 square feet of greenhouse at estimated $128 per square foot CAPEX is added. All those greenhouses in PalmSprings going up in smoke unless the geniuses of Sacramento help the vulture capitalists control market share to protect tax revenue and vulture IPOs. Next time PHD says UV R8 photoreceptor nod your head and ask – how much your quality cost per gram? SIMPLE. The bottom line- how does consumer know what quality is? All those vultures can spin stories…. think Walmart, its the American Way. Sorry.
So what is cost for a LED grower ? Here from Resource Innovation 233 LED for flowering and 130 lights in veg. Look at last page to see CAPEX, Energy 'Incentives', pay back ( ROI), and 41% rate of return. This is from the Pacific Northwest where electrical probably lower than most USA. So what are profit % for each party after $0.42 per gram? So can LED growers makes it through the 2.4 years payback as retail prices fall? So the political and legal solutions seem obvious? Here- see for yourself , https://resourceinnovation.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/RII-LEDBrochure-1.pdf .
Now listen very carefully to recent Kevin Jodrey post at FCP as you parse his strategy. Peace Sisters!
Ok , here is the latest I could source on UV and the photoreceptor UV R8. Discover for yourself the flaws.
'Cannabis growers have been interested in UV light for a long time; however, the relationship between cannabinoids and UV-B is not as direct as first proposed. Increased concentrations of THC, but not of other cannabinoids, were found with UV-B treatment in both leaf and floral tissues of drug-type plants [20, 25]. In contrast, none of thhttps://www.karger.com/Article/FullText/489030e cannabinoids in fiber-type plants were affected by UV-B radiation. In a more recent study, hemp leaves were exposed to UV-C radiation and analyzed for changes in secondary metabolite biosynthesis [26]. While no remarkable change in the cannabinoid content was observed, significant increases in dehydrostilbenes and cinnamic acid amide derivatives were found. The limited data available on the appropriate light source for cannabis production underscore the importance of studying technological developments in horticultural lighting. The objective of this study was to examine the effects of light-spectral quality on cannabis morphology and cannabinoid content in the female flowers under artificial growing conditions. Two lighting technologies (HPS and LED) and 3 different light spectra were used in this study.
' Here is the article-https://www.karger.com/Article/FullText/489030
Feel better now? I started reading- Idiots Guide to LED Plant Light Design, Part I. Be done in 2 weeks I hope. Fired up , ready to go. O:)
2ndary metabolites like terpenes, flavonoids, cannabinoids, carotenoids are multiples of C5 as opposed to C6 like carbs, agree? Plant converts light to chemical energy from CO2 and H20 by shuttling sink – source metabolic products from roots to leaves and vice versa. LHC or Light Harvest Complex absorbs a range of wavelengths and transfers the energy to RC reaction centers. The accessory pigments from 400-550 nanometers protect upper leaf layer and efficiently process light in deeper layers of the leaf or canopy. Further, the pigments protect not only the LHC but respond in defense to insects/ oils or reproduction- color, smell in production of metabolites. Cultivation is genetics and environment or grow factors. Examine photoperiods of light- seed, germination, veg, or flower. The plant has a different minimum, maximum, and optimal combinations, right? Examine circadian clock on a daily and seasonal basis with Neil Yorio's statement about 'carbon economy'. What is the goal of cultivator- roots, stems, leaves or 2ndary metabolites such as terps, cannabinoids, flavonoids, anthocyanins? So different wavelengths, blue, red, far red, UV, accessory will improve terp or other 2ndary products. LED designers can do this.
Now, look at MEP, MVA, and precursor products prior to the metabolic pathways. There is a granularity to controlling nutrient and other environmental factors. LED has just begun. The first benefit is obvious- energy savings, the other benefits if indoor cultivation survives will be to yield what buyers want in terms of quality- THC+ terps. This becomes genetics and environment control either micro or macro scale or some combination at an acceptable market price. Simple to say, difficult to do. Ask how much 'green' does one need? Or conversely is it worth it if one doesn't know? Go with the crowd for now- it is a survival phase, right? Peace, next time UV R8 receptors?
I propose that light will significantly impact terpene and other secondary metabolite production. Before I 'rant' please note the value of the idea by observing this proposed PATENT of THC, CBD and terpene content- The present invention provides Medical Cannabis plants and varieties with increased organoleptic appeal as a result of having specified, predetermined TERPENE and sesquiterpene PROFILE and CONTENT. In some embodiments of the present invention, the increased organoleptic appeal of the Medical Cannabis is inherited in-whole or in-part as a result of using the Classes of Cannabis Varieties in the BREEDING program to develop the Medical Cannabis plants. For, example, in some embodiments, Classes of Cannabis Varieties with specific terpene and sesquiterpene profiles and content are bred with certain cannabis varieties with specific CBD profiles and content to develop Medical Cannabis Varieties with the desired combined attributes of the two types of cannabis plants.
'
So Mark Lewis of Napro and biotech wants royalties for specific breeds of plants with THC, CBD, and terpene profiles? Here is the proposed patent-https://patents.justia.com/patent/20180284145 Interested in light science now? Peace!
I dedicate this rant to Kristen Yoder who fights! Listen to her here- https://www.ganjapreneur.com/kristen-yoder-calling-out-bs-in-the-cannabis-industry/. I have different views, but there is UNITY not UNIFORMITY in our paths. Neil Yorio- begins by citing 'economy' of plant metabolism which can be 'infrastructure' such as stems, roots, leaves known as primary or cannabinoids or terpenes, secondary. Yorio later states 'broadspectra' light as superior to "pink' or narrow band. Dr. Knight agrees. In market economies ( capitalism or socialism, or 'isms'), consumers are buying- primary or secondary metabolites. So the source of primary or secondary is optimized by cost (labor, energy, OPEX, CAPEX) to produce metabolites using whatever cultivation system meets the market ( Black, gray, or white). All cultivators choose whatever light source/s to consistently deliver the product. Again I cite Cornell University, So growers choose indoor, greenhouse, or open field at acceptable risk. I agree with Kristen Yoder's assessment of market direction of consumer preference in the different forms- edibles, dabs, etc aka TERPENES -smell, taste, color, texture. So, assume production costs per pound for medium size cultivators- greenhouse $250, indoor $500, why would a grower use LED? Would it not be easier to buy 'genetics' and use greenhouse? Next rant later because I learned listening to Yoder- " You can only be so anal, until you start turning people off." LED is DEAD, Long live LED!
Why Science? Because Knowledge= Power= $ , right? But in cannabis , big $ does not= knowledge so no $ right? So they buying knowledge, right? What is new? Genetics and light! Think, don't be fooled!
Nature vs Nurture? Think this through, the Phylos change will force you to rethink, ok?
Science of UV? Plant Physiology and thus Photobiology, lighting science is based on principles observed and tested. So my hypothesis in the absence of scientific research is due to government/political intervention which impacts economics. There is little science knows about UV and cannabis. So the debate is NATURE vs NURTURE (human intervention). So my limited observation on UV is based on nature. Cannabis in Nature ( landrace) responds to UV based on 2 major factors- ALTITUDE and LATITUDE. So while I agree in the main with Neil Yorio's observation, I part company based on genetic responses to specific ALTITUDE and LATITUDE; or Jamaica, Mexico, Thailand, Afghanistan, etc. Further, it may be asked that when is UV efficable? Seed, veg, last stage of flower? UV in LED is very inefficient to implement when compared to red LED at 50 %. But is the THC yield or terpene production worth it? So use that zoo reptile UV light if you want to experiment. One has to decide for oneself? Right? Lonely road to walk, huh? Peace
True in 2015 in Bugbee's opinion and still has a lot of validity.
Will LED replace DE HPS in glasshouse? Yes, but it will require a very different mechanical layout, thus necessitating a 2nd gen design. Potential buyers of 1st gen design for retrofit or new facilities must be very cautious because ROI ( Return On Investment) in loosely enforced license markets unless growers can offer premium ( THC + terpenes ) product. DE HPS= $400, so what is cost for outdoor, indoor per pound? Retail price going up? O:) Don't think too hard, its only your $$$, right?
Does this contradict what Neil Yorio states? No, grower needs to factor genetic response to light control. See my reference to ' sink -source' below and listen very very carefully to 'soil' or nutrient experts. Leaf and Root relationship is critical, even tomato growers know this. Peace
PS- LED IS DEAD, long live LED! its going to take a short time to get replace 1st gen LED designs. Read Prof. Bruce Bugbee, ex NASA, Utah State University. If I'm lyin' I'm dyin… serious as a heart attack, etc Peace Sisters! O:)
About 12:00 mark Neil Yorio addresses the transition of growing phase from veg ( 300 umol) to flower ( assume 900umol) using DLI with assuming Dr. Rebecca Knight's benefits of 'broad spectra'. So the flower is triggered by photoperiodicity by the transition from let's say 18 hours to 12, ok? I assert that light is 2 things to plant- energy + information. So DLI is amount of light/photon energy in a day of which different photons red or blue or broad spectra with specific energy levels absorbed, fluorescent, reflect, pass through, or heat plant. During this phase, grower increases the spontaneous radiation 3x while decreasing exposure by 6 hours ( 18 to 12 hours). Observe what is happening above the 'grow media'- the stem is thickening ( infrastructure) and extending vertically with branch development and leaf growth, right?
But 'below grow surface' the root growth is accelerating too. This relationship, 'cause and effect' is known as sink-source where metabolic products are transported from leaf to root and vice versa. Yorio observes this just as lettuce growers do, because lettuce growers are optimizing 'quality' and timing harvest ( DLI) with nutrients and light control. I cite Cornell University's studies.
So 'transition'' between phases is complex in a relatively short time. Listen to Yorio closely. So how does 'broad spectra' alleviate this? First , one needs to understand 'light stress', right? Or the mechanism to respond- NPQ, non-photochemical quenching… child's play for Dr. Knight. Then solve sink source issues, right? Peace sisters!
Sorry to be rude to Neil Yorio- In England years ago they said- " best man for Prime Minister? – Maggie Thatcher ". So Broad Spectra explanation in plant physiology- ( Dr. ?) REBECCA KNIGHT of BIOS- go sister go, here is her science ( you listening, baby boys? ). Let a woman do your job…. again, always cleaning up yo mess. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ItzSmjahHNE Around 8:47 How come nobody say nuthin?
Hello Sisters- this regards the lighting note I made earlier for the SoCal Grow Off Winners Jahrome 2017 and Keith Jordan 2018. The genetics/ chemovars were supplied by respected nurseries Dark Heart and Wonderland/ Kevin Jodrey. Three key factors I note regarding the winners- 1) potency 2) desired qualities- terpenes -smell, taste, color and 3) mass or weight yield. See the videos for detail because the winners are indoor and use different methods from grow media, nutrients, etc to grow 1 plant under 1 light for submission.
Jahrome uses LED for commercial scale while Mr. Jordan uses HPS for his own market needs. What I note is that there are time restrictions by contest rules, and I assume that Jahrome and Mr. Jordan meet all license requirements for their facilities specifically electrical for lights and HVAC. So Jahrome yields 4 pounds while Mr. Jordan 1.5 pounds. I note that Kevin Jodrey publishes his OG strain yields 2 pounds under 1000 W DE HPS while Jordan uses 500W for flowering. Maybe this is the yield difference?
Serious readers can research SoCal Edison for $/kwh to guesstimate flower light and HVAC costs and thereby estimate cost per gram factor their concerns- labor, lease, nutrients, etc. Further readers can see retail or market prices by Leafly posts in SoCal . Now one can guess retail – wholesale- grower economics to see (un) profit dynamics. Oh, don't forget Uncle Gavin's cut, I mean taxes ok?
So in Sunny SoCal , Grow Off winners use artificial lights not greenhouse supplement HPS /mH or outdoor? Poetic Justice? So both winners know how to manipulate the spectrum, intensity, timing of each light source. This is more art than science for now
Kevin Jodrey is an intelligent grower and marketer. I respect him and Dark Heart. The predicted death of indoor growers may be premature, because Jahrome and Mr. Jordan prove that growers harvest different genetics economically, but they solve something much deeper.. they know what customers want and deliver when they want it. Genetics like LEDs are just tools, don't be a fooled don't get "TOOLED'….Peace
PS-Imagine how this can impact US markets where the climates are not Mendocino, Santa Barbara, San Diego. Mr. Plumb and Jodrey know, right? So does Afghan, Colombia, Thailand, Jamaica.
The " Wizard of Weed", the " Bill Nye of Cannabis" Keynote Speaker for Cannabis Business Times, Featured at Emerald Cup, Endorser of LED lights, The designer of High Tech Precision Vertical Stacked Cannabis Rooms…. JEREMY PLUMB !!!!
Knowledgeable in matters from Genetics to Nutrient Regimens, Plumb practices what he preaches at PRUF.
So after years of using bleeding edge LEDs here is his condensation of Lighting aka Photobiology-
' “With the advent of LEDs, we found the ability to control wavelength and output, and beam angle and deficiencies in levels that [were] never remotely possible with a high-intensity discharge system,” Plumb explains. “Using LEDs allows for us to open the door to proper photobiology research where we can use a single wavelength at a particular stage of development, and greatly influence plant morphology to manipulate and optimize the expression of phytochemical production.”
Read the Photobiology section if you got insomnia.
Anybody ever asks – " when you make $$$$$' ?..oops that was rude, sorry because Mr. Plumb is growing medicine.
Mr. Plumb is honest because he admits there is a lot of mystery in lighting he doesn't know. Hey me too, I don't know shineola from well you know… Peace out sisters!
" LIGHTING SCIENCE in Cannabis Cultivation"? Ok, let's cite LIGHTING SCIENCE. First, the only university-based peer-reviewed article I could find, thanks to Google, here- https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3550641/
This is from U of Mississippi School of Pharmacy, what you got?
Next, the claim of broad spectra or 'green light in a revised study by Michigan State U, funded in main by OSRAM,here-
This effectively refutes broad spectra claims by some LED platform vendors, ok?
Anybody want me to dissect Kenneth Morrow's thesis? McCree Curve? Ichiro Terashima and greenlight photosynthesis?
Still curious about Jodrey's genetics…O:) Yay SCIENCE, go science go O:)
Plenty of $$$ left on the table O:) Please invest million$$$ in greenhouses with FREE SUNLIGHT and go bankrupt, please, please. More left for us poor suckers.
Assume like respected Kenneth Morrow of Trichome Tech that quality is the differentiator that will be mass marketed for medicinal uses. Cited previously by the price of indoor, greenhouse, and outdoor by Cannabis Benchmarks what are the structures that will support Kenneth Morrow's theses? One obvious answer based on CAPEX is greenhouse is GW Pharma, right?
So could or would there be a credible indoor competitor that could challenge the greenhouse model? Yes, look at this where tobacco is grown using red and blue LEDs.
Let's assume Kevin Jodrey's numbers are accurate and further round up his photoperiod time to 10 weeks at 12 hours per day to harvest using DE HPS. So if your electricity rate is $0.15 per kwh, then power savings estimate is 35% using LED vs DE HPS, right? So DE HPS costs is $126 total and LED cost would be $82 for 2.5 pounds of OG Kush or $50.4 and $32.76 per pound respectively.
So how long would it take to make up the $18 per pound energy saving cost if DE HPS $400 vs LED $1000? I know I left out the HVAC, labor, nutrient, admin cost, etc.
Now the counter argument is that the market will pay $400 per pound. So PERCEIVED QUALITY is the market differentiator and therefore the ROI could be less than 2 harvests or 20 weeks optimally.
But growers indoors and greenhouse are competing in theory against each other so as market price drops then OPEX, operating costs or COG Cost of Goods or cost to produce becomes critical, and LEDs OPEX advantages will dominate.
Now growers must compare CAPEX or cost to build greenhouse vs indoor just like Kevin Jodrey 30 years ago. It seems obvious on the surface why one should use greenhouse because in the end like all farmers for any genetic product your survival is your market base. But if the CAPEX difference between indoor vs greenhouse shrinks then can indoor prosper? Yes on a small scale basis.
Genetics is key, but the strength of indoor with LED is not just OPEX, it is how growers will use their knowledge of customer preferences to offset the economies of scale. Classical market techniques may be applied, but where is the data that Coca Cola, Big Tobacco, Big Alcohol have to base massive investment strategies to execute market strategies? Observe Jodrey's videos…. why will growers invest in his strains?
Now something one can observe from Neil Yorio's comments- if one can metabolically 'steer' glandular trichomes for terpenes, THC , CBD. maybe one doesn't need exclusive genetic material. Observe, advancements in genetics have accelerated a lot faster than LEDs in 20 years along with marketing ( think Amazon, eBay) right? Hmmmmmmmm
What is the goal of Artificial lighting? Assume you wish to profit, so what are verifiable prices? So use this for example as a guideline in March 2019- $1500 and $ 1100, indoor and greenhouse respectively https://reports.cannabisbenchmarks.com/. So what specific cultivars and what would the lighting requirements be for Indoor, greenhouse or outdoor? I am not affiliated in any way to Kevin Jodrey a respected NoCal grower who advertises specific results here using DE HPS for OG Kush- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xyIEwqVo2g4&list=PLUI_g75VibO9jUAmyjm5HU07MVZ0Qxhmt&index=2
So grower strategizes like every other farmer to profit optimizing their grow system then competing against other growers, right? Simply put, it is genetics, grow environment, intelligent grower, then market execution, right? In Jodrey's example, 2.5 pounds of OG every indoor harvest cycle. Now grower must KNOW the cost to grow which he must control because grower does not control sales price or his commpetitors. Further cannabis is a consumer product that is arbitrary and fickle. Even worse there are extra market forces like government regulations…so growers' business climate is ambiguous at best.
If prices indoor, greenhouse, and outdoor are as cited, how will indoor product compete burdened at higher CAPEX? Realize that LED is new to not only the respected Neil Yorio from NASA but all growers, so can LED growers get to $0.30/ gram? Yes, but it conditional and growers must know how and when to use every tool like LEDs to survive. Agriculture has been this way since civilization began. LED is Dead, long Live LEDs.
Glandular trichome function simplified is self-defense and sexual reproduction. The plant response – cannabinoids or terpenes are metabolic products synthesized along pathways that are regulated by enzymes or genes at specific loci in response to 'terroir' factors such as rH, temp, nutrients and other grow factors. The market value simplified with THC/CBD levels ranging on consumer preference will be differentiated by aroma, color, density, 'taste'. As previously stated below with respect to light I view this as ' Latitude and altitude', Afghanistan vs Jamaica or Australia. LEDs can dynamically replicate seasonal, daily, or hourly conditions if the grower's control system possesses capability. However, evolution is not just man v nature but man v man, right? So LEDs growers in some measurable market trait must prove that it can yield superior results also in terms of CAPEX and/or OPEX, right? Example- anthocyanins are pigments located in the LHC light Harvest Centers are ascribed to color. Anthocynanins protect the LHC from damage- this is called NPQ, non-photochemical quenching. So by increasing INTENSITY the grower can trigger anthocyanin response. If one can see this then one will understand how by using a set of 'stressors' one can elicit or suppress metabolic responses – flavinoids, Actyl sugars, phenolpropenoids , higher cannabinoid production. In effect by clever climate/light control the grower can optimize terpenoid metabolic products, and yes I know there is a difference between mono and sesqui C5 x ?. But the grower must not view light separate from terroir factors, the tobacco and tomato in the US and Netherlands already know this. The key is how to use LEDs to survive the coming market fall as the new entrants arrive.
Breaking News! Congratulations to Sonia Lo of Cropone, Mowgli Holmes of Phylos, and Kevin Brooks of Conception Nursery here- https://www.biospace.com/article/releases/conception-nurseries-a-leading-cannabis-micropropagation-company-comes-out-of-quiet-production-and-launches-publicly-today/ Now cannabis will progress rapidly into the mainstream using LEDs and other high techs tools like genetics, TC tissue culture, and CEA/ controlled environment Ag to bring order out the chaos that now exists in the market. We are so lucky to get efficiency that we deserve out of these savvy techs veterans who are experienced in rewarding investors who care about the community they will serve. We will zealously support their IP along with their undervalued legal staff to ensure that safety, quality, availability, and affordability are omnipresent! Women in SCIENCE ! You go Sister! Sonia Lo for PREZ 2020! Broad Spectra LEDs now!
In nature plant physiologists note what I cite is photoperiod. Further, they note that flowering plants respond temperature, this is called vernalization. It seems that the plant photoreceptor Phytochrome B is a trigger in the temp/ light synthetic pathway. Cannabis is just a plant, what's the big deal about it? Not so special, right? Just a rant O:)
Neil Yorio divides the plant's 'carbon economy' into infrastructure/stems and special metabolites/cannabinoids. Let's call infrastructure building stem and leaf growth- apical meristem then lets call cannabinoid growth due to glandular trichrome from flowers floral primordium. The apical meristem is a stem cell that can become stem, leaves, branches or flowers after germination, vegetation, regeneration during different grow phases. Yorio then refers to the light requirements during the different stages with varying DLI daily light requirements or measured instantly about < 150, < 350, > 700 micromoles ( umols) per meter square. The micromoles/ meter squared is the number of various photons from 400 700 nanometers. Assume cannabis transitions from veg to flower phase after light or photoperiod goes from 18 to 12 hours, now the plant ' genetically' responds and the apical meristem transitions to become a cell called the floral primordium which now breaks through the 'epidermis'. At this phase during cultivation, the growers usually increase the light intensity from 350 to 700+ umols. Please note that historically indoor growers Yorio cites transition from Metal Halide( mostly blue) to HPS (High-Pressure Sodium) mostly red and the spectra and intensity of both sources are FIXED. So is the goal of the grower apical meristem centric- stems, leaves, branches or is it cannabinoids/ glandular trichromes? Hemp vs Cannabis genetically speaking, because if it is cannabis then the light designer must optimize for floral primordium generally the last 9 weeks of growth while simultaneously optimizing all climate and nutrient programs, right? In Humboldt County, Kevin Jodrey is intimately familiar with the seasonal sun profile to optimize GENETIC response of various strains such as the ones he markets. Neil Yorio if he wished could recreate the Humboldt profile for any strains. Interesting?
First, thanks to Future Cannabis Project for posting my comments. I wish to reference as a follow up to prior indoor light numbers of Kevin Jodrey from another post here at the 2:04 and 2: 08-time stamps, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUFZQy6aEO0. The other panelists have valid economic, political, and marketing POV whether I agree with them or not. Jeff Lowenfels cites LEP, Light Emitting Plasma as a ' sun' or broad spectra which I table for a moment. Specifically, Jodrey states on his video the performance of his plant under HPS, and I have no problem with this because I assume his a straight up guy. Further, in the post I cite here, Mowgli Holmes can challenge what I cite next that is Cannabis Cultivation is directly impacted by what all can agree is 'terroir' and specifically ' light' conditions. However, commercially grown indoor, greenhouse, or open field ag plant are bred for those conditions. Specifically, tomatoes, genetically similar to cannabis have encountered this quandary, I cite 50-year experienced Dr. J. Benton Jones a nutrient expert in hydroponics examining what I cite here-https://www.maximumyield.com/growing-plants-under-artificial-light-whats-missing/2/2652 But if one is given the genetics by Jodrey, or Holmes or a breeder one can use sensors- CO2, rH, temp and for us a spectrometer and an infrared thermometer to produce top shelf flower cheaper than DE HPS. Why? Because LED offers precision control. Its CAPEX price is artificially high …its rational but it's still too high, right?
Scotts Miracle Gro ( SMG $1.8B revenue, subsidiaries-Gavitas DE HPS and Agrolux, LED ) calculates Kevin Jodrey's trajectory of marketing and genetics as cited in the previous post. Give the CEO credit for his astute moves to dominate a sector such as the microgrower through superior sales channel that Jodrey cannot match. SMG has spent hundreds of million$ acquiring companies to feed the cannabis grower. SMG forms alliance with Flowr employing University of Guelph ( Canada) PHDs that has proven cannabis R & D to use genetics and nutrient to increase yield from 250 to 500 gram/ square foot in a 50000 square foot state of the art production facility. Think of all those millions of microgrowers buying clones, nutrients, HPS, seeds, tools. Here- is Flowr planning to sell 3M clones @$15-20 each https://www.bnnbloomberg.ca/flowr-to-sell-clone-pot-plants-in-home-growing-push-1.1207033 Jodrey and SMG aint dumb, right? Before one thinks the big $MG types dominate while branding like Humboldt Grown struggle, is there a middle path?
Assume Kevin Jodrey, Wonderland Nursery is a standup guy selling plants/genetics. One can view all the data for specific strains he sells for indoor using HPS lighting. Here for example-is 2.5 pounds OG Kush, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xyIEwqVo2g4&index=2&list=PLUI_g75VibO9jUAmyjm5HU07MVZ0Qxhmt. Therefore if LEDs match HPS spectra using identical PPFD, then growers gain 35-45% energy OPEX savings, right? So should LEDs use 'broad spectra' to match HPS? YES, as long as 1st as it makes them $$, and the CAPEX can be justified. But will growers convert ( kinda like religion)? No, why ?…… oh ye of little faith O:) besides CAPEX for Light DEP + DE HPS is cheaper and 'master growers' take less risk. Growers of this old religion are now 'married ' to genetics. Crank up the IP attorneys O:)
Factors of Plant Growth, Metabolism- above the grow medium- Light, Temp, Rh, CO2, gas circulation; below – temp, O2, H2O, nutrient content. So what are the goals of grower- yield, mass and quality traits ( secondary metabolites- cannabinoids, terpenes, color,…) What part of the plant do desired metabolites occur? Glandular Trichome What is the effect of light on glandular trichrome production? Quality=Spectra ( wavelengths ) and Quantity( umol, PPFD) to enhance or suppress metabolite products or biosynthetic pathways. Cite an example of specific effect. UV on metabolic content. How so? Plants evolve in environments, so ALTITUDE ( Afghanistan) and LATITUDE ( Thailand) have different UV environments. Further plants in addition to Chlorophyll A and B have a receptor UV R8 that absorbs UV which then triggers a transcriptional response. Therefore, supplementing UV to 'broad spectra' should increase Cannabinoid content during reproductive stage. Given your statements below, what should a grower plan in lighting strategy? Historically, and specifically in the Netherlands – control systems are stable with progress on all Factors on Plant Growth advancing at a predictable tempo. A grower should plan light strategy around environmental control and room geometry. Next, plan CAPEX and OPEX before bankruptcy. O:) Does U of Mississippi study alter your perspective on cannabis grow? No, and no army of PHDs recreating the study either. The difficulty is that Photosynthetic effects are measured using 4 factors measured in Pn, Wue, CO2 efficiency ( Ci/Ca), etc. One can derive the same results in similar controlled conditions by understanding the mechanisms of stomatal control using wavelength manipulations. Stomata is gateway to CO2, transpiration which then relates to VPD/rH, Pn , stress to elicit or suppress desired products. So understand that 'green' or broad spectra can negate specific effects of 'PAR" spectra. So use science- the tobacco and tomato growers do.
Light/Photons- umol, PPFD produce carbon molecules that produce carbs ( 6 C ) and terpenes ( multiples of 5 C) , right? So the 'market' values terpenes such as Limonene, Diterpenes like dihydroleucodine /taxol/ cancer, Sesquiterpenes- Pentalenolactone ( antibiotic), Gossypol ( anti-cancer) from the Mevalonate Pathways, right? I cite- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mevalonate_pathway.
Further by examining PS I that is 'coupled ' to Calvin Cycle for multiple cycles to generate 6C products/substrates at P680 and P700 states, what quantities do phytochrome, cryptochrome, anthocyanins, flavonoids utilize of BROAD SPECTRA or GREEN LIGHT to produce 5C terpenes?
I'll agree that 5C products are derived from nucleic transcriptions. So I have no issue with genetics responding to environmental conditions. By the way, does Chlorophyll B have an RC ( Reaction Center) like Chlorophyll A so that 700nM wavelengths are coupled to Calvin Cycle to produce carbs?
I guarantee that tobacco scientists know 2ndary metabolic pathways. Why ? the FDA regulates a $100 B+ market.
These are cool people. Could you have Neil touch on "light weaponry" and our own human response to…led street lighting? and damage cause to the eye/ brain function.
Great info, but Mr Yorio never answered the question about target DLI levels for different periods of growth. Would have liked to have heard his thoughts on that.
I know the University of Mississippi’s research found that 1500 PPFD provided the fastest growth/highest rate of photosynthesis. That would represent a DLI of 64.8 if run for 12 hours (which I’m assuming it must have occurred during by listening to Mr Yorio’s points here about balancing the DLI between Veg and Flowering cycles).
Would be interesting to hear of his research at NASA found similar light levels to be optimal as well though.
Thanks again for posting this.
Photobiology in 8.5 minutes by Neil Yorio's compadre at NASA- Prof. Bruce Bugbee, Utah State University and Apogee Instruments ( PAR meters)
Ready to grow indoors, greenhouse? O:)
Enjoy- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gHOJQmYFW1A
What is the use of lighting science, CMH, plasma, HPS, LED to the cannabis grower? For most, $$ or nonprofit or low-profit community. Once grower settles on WHERE-open field, greenhouse or indoor then for $$ grower it is ECONOMICS or risk. To the grower, this means YIELD in terms of biomass (weight) and marketable traits such as terpenes. All light sources have a COST- sunlight is not free, the land on which cannabis grows is not free. Now grower must calculate yield against CAPEX and OPEX of each component as a system. Lighting is energy so indoor or greenhouse ( is glass, plastic free?) must be measured. In an economic analysis done by Newbean Capital for indoor horticulture, the study claims OPEX 28% due energy costs and 22% for servicing CAPEX debt. Therefore, the calculation in a legally or politically ambiguous environment grower must choose light source or geography to suit acceptable the risk /reward on the basis of time. If one is well capitalized or has access to resources like economic labor, market channels then the costs are at least known, then the size of operations ( Canopy, Tilray, et al) is scaled to targeted market share.
Being scientific means it does not matter if grower chooses Broad spectra as opposed to narrow 'Pink', it is to use Light Science to predict in a shifting economic environment how CAPEX and OPEX gives a grower an advantage against competitors or in plant speak- pests O:). Growers observe LED pricing( broad spectra or not) in terms of the Newbean Capital as retail bottom out in terms that they need to calculate their survival. Tilray, Canopy, Aurora have, do you or can you? A word from the wise is expensive but what is your life worth, right? Peace
Next contender, plasma? Broad light is best? Pink ( red blue) ok, Green better? It's cheaper not better… need a PHD to prove it? Where's the proof? Growers care about profit. So greenhouse is ok for plasma but where is the proof that cannabinoid or terpene production is higher?
Legalization removes the risk premium that the prior generation of growers took to get $4000/pound in 2014. Legalization however screwed up has removed some barriers to investors to turn cannabis into a commodity where EFFICIENCY is QUEEN. Therefore in Colorado price has dropped 60% in 3 years and the same elsewhere- Oregon, Washington. Think tomatoes, tobacco. Hemp grown in Canada is $500 per acre, think cannabinoid is far behind?
Aurora ( Canada) production cost is $1.28 per gram, dry weight from state of the art greenhouse production in high volume. Aurora goal is $0.75 per gram within the new future as another 400000 square feet of greenhouse at estimated $128 per square foot CAPEX is added.
All those greenhouses in PalmSprings going up in smoke unless the geniuses of Sacramento help the vulture capitalists control market share to protect tax revenue and vulture IPOs.
Next time PHD says UV R8 photoreceptor nod your head and ask – how much your quality cost per gram? SIMPLE.
The bottom line- how does consumer know what quality is? All those vultures can spin stories…. think Walmart, its the American Way. Sorry.
So what is cost for a LED grower ? Here from Resource Innovation 233 LED for flowering and 130 lights in veg. Look at last page to see CAPEX, Energy 'Incentives', pay back ( ROI), and 41% rate of return. This is from the Pacific Northwest where electrical probably lower than most USA. So what are profit % for each party after $0.42 per gram? So can LED growers makes it through the 2.4 years payback as retail prices fall? So the political and legal solutions seem obvious? Here- see for yourself , https://resourceinnovation.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/RII-LEDBrochure-1.pdf .
Now listen very carefully to recent Kevin Jodrey post at FCP as you parse his strategy. Peace Sisters!
Ok , here is the latest I could source on UV and the photoreceptor UV R8. Discover for yourself the flaws.
'Cannabis growers have been interested in UV light for a long time; however, the relationship between cannabinoids and UV-B is not as direct as first proposed. Increased concentrations of THC, but not of other cannabinoids, were found with UV-B treatment in both leaf and floral tissues of drug-type plants [20, 25]. In contrast, none of thhttps://www.karger.com/Article/FullText/489030e cannabinoids in fiber-type plants were affected by UV-B radiation. In a more recent study, hemp leaves were exposed to UV-C radiation and analyzed for changes in secondary metabolite biosynthesis [26]. While no remarkable change in the cannabinoid content was observed, significant increases in dehydrostilbenes and cinnamic acid amide derivatives were found. The limited data available on the appropriate light source for cannabis production underscore the importance of studying technological developments in horticultural lighting. The objective of this study was to examine the effects of light-spectral quality on cannabis morphology and cannabinoid content in the female flowers under artificial growing conditions. Two lighting technologies (HPS and LED) and 3 different light spectra were used in this study.
'
Here is the article-https://www.karger.com/Article/FullText/489030
Feel better now? I started reading- Idiots Guide to LED Plant Light Design, Part I. Be done in 2 weeks I hope. Fired up , ready to go. O:)
2ndary metabolites like terpenes, flavonoids, cannabinoids, carotenoids are multiples of C5 as opposed to C6 like carbs, agree?
Plant converts light to chemical energy from CO2 and H20 by shuttling sink – source metabolic products from roots to leaves and vice versa.
LHC or Light Harvest Complex absorbs a range of wavelengths and transfers the energy to RC reaction centers. The accessory pigments from 400-550 nanometers protect upper leaf layer and efficiently process light in deeper layers of the leaf or canopy. Further, the pigments protect not only the LHC but respond in defense to insects/ oils or reproduction- color, smell in production of metabolites.
Cultivation is genetics and environment or grow factors. Examine photoperiods of light- seed, germination, veg, or flower. The plant has a different minimum, maximum, and optimal combinations, right? Examine circadian clock on a daily and seasonal basis with Neil Yorio's statement about 'carbon economy'. What is the goal of cultivator- roots, stems, leaves or 2ndary metabolites such as terps, cannabinoids, flavonoids, anthocyanins?
So different wavelengths, blue, red, far red, UV, accessory will improve terp or other 2ndary products. LED designers can do this.
Now, look at MEP, MVA, and precursor products prior to the metabolic pathways. There is a granularity to controlling nutrient and other environmental factors. LED has just begun. The first benefit is obvious- energy savings, the other benefits if indoor cultivation survives will be to yield what buyers want in terms of quality- THC+ terps. This becomes genetics and environment control either micro or macro scale or some combination at an acceptable market price. Simple to say, difficult to do.
Ask how much 'green' does one need? Or conversely is it worth it if one doesn't know? Go with the crowd for now- it is a survival phase, right?
Peace, next time UV R8 receptors?
I propose that light will significantly impact terpene and other secondary metabolite production. Before I 'rant' please note the value of the idea by observing this proposed PATENT of THC, CBD and terpene content- The present invention provides Medical Cannabis plants and varieties with increased organoleptic appeal as a result of having specified, predetermined TERPENE and sesquiterpene PROFILE and CONTENT. In some embodiments of the present invention, the increased organoleptic appeal of the Medical Cannabis is inherited in-whole or in-part as a result of using the Classes of Cannabis Varieties in the BREEDING program to develop the Medical Cannabis plants. For, example, in some embodiments, Classes of Cannabis Varieties with specific terpene and sesquiterpene profiles and content are bred with certain cannabis varieties with specific CBD profiles and content to develop Medical Cannabis Varieties with the desired combined attributes of the two types of cannabis plants.
'
So Mark Lewis of Napro and biotech wants royalties for specific breeds of plants with THC, CBD, and terpene profiles?
Here is the proposed patent-https://patents.justia.com/patent/20180284145
Interested in light science now?
Peace!
I dedicate this rant to Kristen Yoder who fights! Listen to her here- https://www.ganjapreneur.com/kristen-yoder-calling-out-bs-in-the-cannabis-industry/. I have different views, but there is UNITY not UNIFORMITY in our paths.
Neil Yorio- begins by citing 'economy' of plant metabolism which can be 'infrastructure' such as stems, roots, leaves known as primary or cannabinoids or terpenes, secondary. Yorio later states 'broadspectra' light as superior to "pink' or narrow band. Dr. Knight agrees.
In market economies ( capitalism or socialism, or 'isms'), consumers are buying- primary or secondary metabolites.
So the source of primary or secondary is optimized by cost (labor, energy, OPEX, CAPEX) to produce metabolites using whatever cultivation system meets the market ( Black, gray, or white). All cultivators choose whatever light source/s to consistently deliver the product. Again I cite Cornell University, So growers choose indoor, greenhouse, or open field at acceptable risk.
I agree with Kristen Yoder's assessment of market direction of consumer preference in the different forms- edibles, dabs, etc aka
TERPENES -smell, taste, color, texture.
So, assume production costs per pound for medium size cultivators- greenhouse $250, indoor $500, why would a grower use LED?
Would it not be easier to buy 'genetics' and use greenhouse?
Next rant later because I learned listening to Yoder- " You can only be so anal, until you start turning people off."
LED is DEAD, Long live LED!
Why Science? Because Knowledge= Power= $ , right? But in cannabis , big $ does not= knowledge so no $ right? So they buying knowledge, right? What is new? Genetics and light! Think, don't be fooled!
Nature vs Nurture? Think this through, the Phylos change will force you to rethink, ok?
Science of UV? Plant Physiology and thus Photobiology, lighting science is based on principles observed and tested. So my hypothesis in the absence of scientific research is due to government/political intervention which impacts economics. There is little science knows about UV and cannabis. So the debate is NATURE vs NURTURE (human intervention). So my limited observation on UV is based on nature. Cannabis in Nature ( landrace) responds to UV based on 2 major factors- ALTITUDE and LATITUDE. So while I agree in the main with Neil Yorio's observation, I part company based on genetic responses to specific ALTITUDE and LATITUDE; or Jamaica, Mexico, Thailand, Afghanistan, etc. Further, it may be asked that when is UV efficable? Seed, veg, last stage of flower?
UV in LED is very inefficient to implement when compared to red LED at 50 %. But is the THC yield or terpene production worth it? So use that zoo reptile UV light if you want to experiment. One has to decide for oneself? Right?
Lonely road to walk, huh?
Peace
Should LED be used in greenhouses now? No, Why not? I cite Bruce Bugbee from 2015 here, starting page 14- https://www.ballpublishing.com/pdf/insidegrower/Inside_Grower_0215.pdf
True in 2015 in Bugbee's opinion and still has a lot of validity.
Will LED replace DE HPS in glasshouse? Yes, but it will require a very different mechanical layout, thus necessitating a 2nd gen design. Potential buyers of 1st gen design for retrofit or new facilities must be very cautious because ROI ( Return On Investment) in loosely enforced license markets unless growers can offer premium ( THC + terpenes ) product. DE HPS= $400, so what is cost for outdoor, indoor per pound? Retail price going up? O:) Don't think too hard, its only your $$$, right?
Does this contradict what Neil Yorio states? No, grower needs to factor genetic response to light control. See my reference to ' sink -source' below and listen very very carefully to 'soil' or nutrient experts. Leaf and Root relationship is critical, even tomato growers know this.
Peace
PS- LED IS DEAD, long live LED! its going to take a short time to get replace 1st gen LED designs. Read Prof. Bruce Bugbee, ex NASA, Utah State University. If I'm lyin' I'm dyin… serious as a heart attack, etc Peace Sisters! O:)
About 12:00 mark Neil Yorio addresses the transition of growing phase from veg ( 300 umol) to flower ( assume 900umol) using DLI with assuming Dr. Rebecca Knight's benefits of 'broad spectra'. So the flower is triggered by photoperiodicity by the transition from let's say 18 hours to 12, ok? I assert that light is 2 things to plant- energy + information. So DLI is amount of light/photon energy in a day of which different photons red or blue or broad spectra with specific energy levels absorbed, fluorescent, reflect, pass through, or heat plant. During this phase, grower increases the spontaneous radiation 3x while decreasing exposure by 6 hours ( 18 to 12 hours). Observe what is happening above the 'grow media'- the stem is thickening ( infrastructure) and extending vertically with branch development and leaf growth, right?
But 'below grow surface' the root growth is accelerating too. This relationship, 'cause and effect' is known as sink-source where metabolic products are transported from leaf to root and vice versa. Yorio observes this just as lettuce growers do, because lettuce growers are optimizing 'quality' and timing harvest ( DLI) with nutrients and light control. I cite Cornell University's studies.
So 'transition'' between phases is complex in a relatively short time. Listen to Yorio closely. So how does 'broad spectra' alleviate this? First , one needs to understand 'light stress', right? Or the mechanism to respond- NPQ, non-photochemical quenching… child's play for Dr. Knight. Then solve sink source issues, right?
Peace sisters!
Lighting Science in Cannabis?
What's the wisdom? ' Never send a BOY to do a MAN's JOB?"
NOPE, Send a WOMAN ! Here- let HER finish the JOB- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jvo4xSlsbck
All you boys got yo hands in your pockets? Playin? Cat got yo tongue? Speak up somebody?
Neil Yorio= VP, DOCTOR Knight = PHD is App Engineer? She probably got mo stock options, huh?
Sisterhood!!!! Peace
Sorry to be rude to Neil Yorio- In England years ago they said- " best man for Prime Minister? – Maggie Thatcher ". So Broad Spectra explanation in plant physiology- ( Dr. ?) REBECCA KNIGHT of BIOS- go sister go, here is her science ( you listening, baby boys? ). Let a woman do your job…. again, always cleaning up yo mess.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ItzSmjahHNE
Around 8:47
How come nobody say nuthin?
Hello Sisters- this regards the lighting note I made earlier for the SoCal Grow Off Winners Jahrome 2017 and Keith Jordan 2018. The genetics/ chemovars were supplied by respected nurseries Dark Heart and Wonderland/ Kevin Jodrey. Three key factors I note regarding the winners- 1) potency 2) desired qualities- terpenes -smell, taste, color and 3) mass or weight yield. See the videos for detail because the winners are indoor and use different methods from grow media, nutrients, etc to grow 1 plant under 1 light for submission.
Jahrome uses LED for commercial scale while Mr. Jordan uses HPS for his own market needs. What I note is that there are time restrictions by contest rules, and I assume that Jahrome and Mr. Jordan meet all license requirements for their facilities specifically electrical for lights and HVAC. So Jahrome yields 4 pounds while Mr. Jordan 1.5 pounds. I note that Kevin Jodrey publishes his OG strain yields 2 pounds under 1000 W DE HPS while Jordan uses 500W for flowering. Maybe this is the yield difference?
Serious readers can research SoCal Edison for $/kwh to guesstimate flower light and HVAC costs and thereby estimate cost per gram factor their concerns- labor, lease, nutrients, etc. Further readers can see retail or market prices by Leafly posts in SoCal . Now one can guess retail – wholesale- grower economics to see (un) profit dynamics. Oh, don't forget Uncle Gavin's cut, I mean taxes ok?
So in Sunny SoCal , Grow Off winners use artificial lights not greenhouse supplement HPS /mH or outdoor? Poetic Justice? So both winners know how to manipulate the spectrum, intensity, timing of each light source. This is more art than science for now
Kevin Jodrey is an intelligent grower and marketer. I respect him and Dark Heart. The predicted death of indoor growers may be premature, because Jahrome and Mr. Jordan prove that growers harvest different genetics economically, but they solve something much deeper.. they know what customers want and deliver when they want it. Genetics like LEDs are just tools, don't be a fooled don't get "TOOLED'….Peace
PS-Imagine how this can impact US markets where the climates are not Mendocino, Santa Barbara, San Diego. Mr. Plumb and Jodrey know, right? So does Afghan, Colombia, Thailand, Jamaica.
The " Wizard of Weed", the " Bill Nye of Cannabis" Keynote Speaker for Cannabis Business Times, Featured at Emerald Cup, Endorser of LED lights,
The designer of High Tech Precision Vertical Stacked Cannabis Rooms…. JEREMY PLUMB !!!!
Knowledgeable in matters from Genetics to Nutrient Regimens, Plumb practices what he preaches at PRUF.
So after years of using bleeding edge LEDs here is his condensation of Lighting aka Photobiology-
' “With the advent of LEDs, we found the ability to control wavelength and output, and beam angle and deficiencies in levels that [were] never remotely possible with a high-intensity discharge system,” Plumb explains. “Using LEDs allows for us to open the door to proper photobiology research where we can use a single wavelength at a particular stage of development, and greatly influence plant morphology to manipulate and optimize the expression of phytochemical production.”
Here is the source- https://www.cannabisbusinesstimes.com/article/driven-by-science/ so he can get higher quality product aka TERPENES content.
Read the Photobiology section if you got insomnia.
Anybody ever asks – " when you make $$$$$' ?..oops that was rude, sorry because Mr. Plumb is growing medicine.
Mr. Plumb is honest because he admits there is a lot of mystery in lighting he doesn't know. Hey me too, I don't know shineola from well you know…
Peace out sisters!
" LIGHTING SCIENCE in Cannabis Cultivation"?
Ok, let's cite LIGHTING SCIENCE. First, the only university-based peer-reviewed article I could find, thanks to Google, here-
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3550641/
This is from U of Mississippi School of Pharmacy, what you got?
Next, the claim of broad spectra or 'green light in a revised study by Michigan State U, funded in main by OSRAM,here-
https://www.producegrower.com/article/green-and-blue-led-lighting/
This effectively refutes broad spectra claims by some LED platform vendors, ok?
Anybody want me to dissect Kenneth Morrow's thesis? McCree Curve? Ichiro Terashima and greenlight photosynthesis?
Still curious about Jodrey's genetics…O:) Yay SCIENCE, go science go O:)
Plenty of $$$ left on the table O:) Please invest million$$$ in greenhouses with FREE SUNLIGHT and go bankrupt, please, please. More left for us poor suckers.
Assume like respected Kenneth Morrow of Trichome Tech that quality is the differentiator that will be mass marketed for medicinal uses. Cited previously by the price of indoor, greenhouse, and outdoor by Cannabis Benchmarks what are the structures that will support Kenneth Morrow's theses? One obvious answer based on CAPEX is greenhouse is GW Pharma, right?
So could or would there be a credible indoor competitor that could challenge the greenhouse model? Yes, look at this where tobacco is grown using red and blue LEDs.
https://www.ibioinc.com/~ibio/index.php/technologies
So is the argument for broad spectra that it produces higher quality medicinal plants? iBio has PHDs from Texas A & M that say it aint so.
LED is dead, long live LEDs. Time for me to start LED light company O:) and buy some Jodrey genetics O:)
Let's assume Kevin Jodrey's numbers are accurate and further round up his photoperiod time to 10 weeks at 12 hours per day to harvest using DE HPS. So if your electricity rate is $0.15 per kwh, then power savings estimate is 35% using LED vs DE HPS, right? So DE HPS costs is $126 total and LED cost would be $82 for 2.5 pounds of OG Kush or $50.4 and $32.76 per pound respectively.
So how long would it take to make up the $18 per pound energy saving cost if DE HPS $400 vs LED $1000? I know I left out the HVAC, labor, nutrient, admin cost, etc.
Now the counter argument is that the market will pay $400 per pound. So PERCEIVED QUALITY is the market differentiator and therefore the ROI could be less than 2 harvests or 20 weeks optimally.
But growers indoors and greenhouse are competing in theory against each other so as market price drops then OPEX, operating costs or COG Cost of Goods or cost to produce becomes critical, and LEDs OPEX advantages will dominate.
Now growers must compare CAPEX or cost to build greenhouse vs indoor just like Kevin Jodrey 30 years ago. It seems obvious on the surface why one should use greenhouse because in the end like all farmers for any genetic product your survival is your market base. But if the CAPEX difference between indoor vs greenhouse shrinks then can indoor prosper? Yes on a small scale basis.
Genetics is key, but the strength of indoor with LED is not just OPEX, it is how growers will use their knowledge of customer preferences to offset the economies of scale. Classical market techniques may be applied, but where is the data that Coca Cola, Big Tobacco, Big Alcohol have to base massive investment strategies to execute market strategies? Observe Jodrey's videos…. why will growers invest in his strains?
Now something one can observe from Neil Yorio's comments- if one can metabolically 'steer' glandular trichomes for terpenes, THC , CBD. maybe one doesn't need exclusive genetic material. Observe, advancements in genetics have accelerated a lot faster than LEDs in 20 years along with marketing ( think Amazon, eBay) right? Hmmmmmmmm
What is the goal of Artificial lighting? Assume you wish to profit, so what are verifiable prices? So use this for example as a guideline in March 2019- $1500 and $ 1100, indoor and greenhouse respectively https://reports.cannabisbenchmarks.com/. So what specific cultivars and what would the lighting requirements be for Indoor, greenhouse or outdoor? I am not affiliated in any way to Kevin Jodrey a respected NoCal grower who advertises specific results here using DE HPS for OG
Kush- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xyIEwqVo2g4&list=PLUI_g75VibO9jUAmyjm5HU07MVZ0Qxhmt&index=2
So grower strategizes like every other farmer to profit optimizing their grow system then competing against other growers, right? Simply put, it is genetics, grow environment, intelligent grower, then market execution, right? In Jodrey's example, 2.5 pounds of OG every indoor harvest cycle. Now grower must KNOW the cost to grow which he must control because grower does not control sales price or his commpetitors. Further cannabis is a consumer product that is arbitrary and fickle. Even worse there are extra market forces like government regulations…so growers' business climate is ambiguous at best.
If prices indoor, greenhouse, and outdoor are as cited, how will indoor product compete burdened at higher CAPEX? Realize that LED is new to not only the respected Neil Yorio from NASA but all growers, so can LED growers get to $0.30/ gram? Yes, but it conditional and growers must know how and when to use every tool like LEDs to survive. Agriculture has been this way since civilization began. LED is Dead, long Live LEDs.
Glandular trichome function simplified is self-defense and sexual reproduction. The plant response – cannabinoids or terpenes are metabolic products synthesized along pathways that are regulated by enzymes or genes at specific loci in response to 'terroir' factors such as rH, temp, nutrients and other grow factors. The market value simplified with THC/CBD levels ranging on consumer preference will be differentiated by aroma, color, density, 'taste'. As previously stated below with respect to light I view this as ' Latitude and altitude', Afghanistan vs Jamaica or Australia. LEDs can dynamically replicate seasonal, daily, or hourly conditions if the grower's control system possesses capability. However, evolution is not just man v nature but man v man, right? So LEDs growers in some measurable market trait must prove that it can yield superior results also in terms of CAPEX and/or OPEX, right? Example- anthocyanins are pigments located in the LHC light Harvest Centers are ascribed to color. Anthocynanins protect the LHC from damage- this is called NPQ, non-photochemical quenching. So by increasing INTENSITY the grower can trigger anthocyanin response. If one can see this then one will understand how by using a set of 'stressors' one can elicit or suppress metabolic responses – flavinoids, Actyl sugars, phenolpropenoids , higher cannabinoid production. In effect by clever climate/light control the grower can optimize terpenoid metabolic products, and yes I know there is a difference between mono and sesqui C5 x ?. But the grower must not view light separate from terroir factors, the tobacco and tomato in the US and Netherlands already know this. The key is how to use LEDs to survive the coming market fall as the new entrants arrive.
Breaking News! Congratulations to Sonia Lo of Cropone, Mowgli Holmes of Phylos, and Kevin Brooks of Conception Nursery here- https://www.biospace.com/article/releases/conception-nurseries-a-leading-cannabis-micropropagation-company-comes-out-of-quiet-production-and-launches-publicly-today/
Now cannabis will progress rapidly into the mainstream using LEDs and other high techs tools like genetics, TC tissue culture, and CEA/ controlled environment Ag to bring order out the chaos that now exists in the market.
We are so lucky to get efficiency that we deserve out of these savvy techs veterans who are experienced in rewarding investors who care about the community they will serve. We will zealously support their IP along with their undervalued legal staff to ensure that safety, quality, availability, and affordability are omnipresent!
Women in SCIENCE ! You go Sister! Sonia Lo for PREZ 2020! Broad Spectra LEDs now!
In nature plant physiologists note what I cite is photoperiod. Further, they note that flowering plants respond temperature, this is called vernalization. It seems that the plant photoreceptor Phytochrome B is a trigger in the temp/ light synthetic pathway. Cannabis is just a plant, what's the big deal about it? Not so special, right? Just a rant O:)
Neil Yorio divides the plant's 'carbon economy' into infrastructure/stems and special metabolites/cannabinoids. Let's call infrastructure building stem and leaf growth- apical meristem then lets call cannabinoid growth due to glandular trichrome from flowers
floral primordium. The apical meristem is a stem cell that can become stem, leaves, branches or flowers after germination, vegetation, regeneration during different grow phases. Yorio then refers to the light requirements during the different stages with varying DLI daily light requirements or measured instantly about < 150, < 350, > 700 micromoles ( umols) per meter square. The micromoles/ meter squared is the number of various photons from 400700 nanometers. Assume cannabis transitions from veg to flower phase after light or photoperiod goes from 18 to 12 hours, now the plant ' genetically' responds and the apical meristem transitions to become a cell called the floral primordium which now breaks through the 'epidermis'. At this phase during cultivation, the growers usually increase the light intensity from 350 to 700+ umols. Please note that historically indoor growers Yorio cites transition from Metal Halide( mostly blue) to HPS (High-Pressure Sodium) mostly red and the spectra and intensity of both sources are FIXED.So is the goal of the grower apical meristem centric- stems, leaves, branches or is it cannabinoids/ glandular trichromes? Hemp vs Cannabis genetically speaking, because if it is cannabis then the light designer must optimize for floral primordium generally the last 9 weeks of growth while simultaneously optimizing all climate and nutrient programs, right? In Humboldt County, Kevin Jodrey is intimately familiar with the seasonal sun profile to optimize GENETIC response of various strains such as the ones he markets. Neil Yorio if he wished could recreate the Humboldt profile for any strains. Interesting?
First, thanks to Future Cannabis Project for posting my comments. I wish to reference as a follow up to prior indoor light numbers of Kevin Jodrey from another post here at the 2:04 and 2: 08-time stamps, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUFZQy6aEO0. The other panelists have valid economic, political, and marketing POV whether I agree with them or not. Jeff Lowenfels cites LEP, Light Emitting Plasma as a ' sun' or broad spectra which I table for a moment.
Specifically, Jodrey states on his video the performance of his plant under HPS, and I have no problem with this because I assume his a straight up guy. Further, in the post I cite here, Mowgli Holmes can challenge what I cite next that is Cannabis Cultivation is directly impacted by what all can agree is 'terroir' and specifically ' light' conditions.
However, commercially grown indoor, greenhouse, or open field ag plant are bred for those conditions. Specifically, tomatoes, genetically similar to cannabis have encountered this quandary, I cite 50-year experienced Dr. J. Benton Jones a nutrient expert in hydroponics examining what I cite here-https://www.maximumyield.com/growing-plants-under-artificial-light-whats-missing/2/2652
But if one is given the genetics by Jodrey, or Holmes or a breeder one can use sensors- CO2, rH, temp and for us a spectrometer and an infrared thermometer to produce top shelf flower cheaper than DE HPS. Why? Because LED offers precision control. Its CAPEX price is artificially high …its rational but it's still too high, right?
Scotts Miracle Gro ( SMG $1.8B revenue, subsidiaries-Gavitas DE HPS and Agrolux, LED ) calculates Kevin Jodrey's trajectory of marketing and genetics as cited in the previous post. Give the CEO credit for his astute moves to dominate a sector such as the microgrower through superior sales channel that Jodrey cannot match. SMG has spent hundreds of million$ acquiring companies to feed the cannabis grower. SMG forms alliance with Flowr employing University of Guelph ( Canada) PHDs that has proven cannabis R & D to use genetics and nutrient to increase yield from 250 to 500 gram/ square foot in a 50000 square foot state of the art production facility. Think of all those millions of microgrowers buying clones, nutrients, HPS, seeds, tools. Here- is Flowr planning to sell 3M clones @$15-20 each https://www.bnnbloomberg.ca/flowr-to-sell-clone-pot-plants-in-home-growing-push-1.1207033
Jodrey and SMG aint dumb, right? Before one thinks the big $MG types dominate while branding like Humboldt Grown struggle, is there a middle path?
How come you lighting geniuses are silent?
Assume Kevin Jodrey, Wonderland Nursery is a standup guy selling plants/genetics. One can view all the data for specific strains he sells for indoor using HPS lighting. Here for example-is 2.5 pounds OG Kush, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xyIEwqVo2g4&index=2&list=PLUI_g75VibO9jUAmyjm5HU07MVZ0Qxhmt.
Therefore if LEDs match HPS spectra using identical PPFD, then growers gain 35-45% energy OPEX savings, right?
So should LEDs use 'broad spectra' to match HPS? YES, as long as 1st as it makes them $$, and the CAPEX can be justified. But will growers convert ( kinda like religion)? No, why ?…… oh ye of little faith O:) besides CAPEX for Light DEP + DE HPS is cheaper and 'master growers' take less risk. Growers of this old religion are now 'married ' to genetics. Crank up the IP attorneys O:)
so hard to hear
Factors of Plant Growth, Metabolism- above the grow medium- Light, Temp, Rh, CO2, gas circulation; below – temp, O2, H2O, nutrient content.
So what are the goals of grower- yield, mass and quality traits ( secondary metabolites- cannabinoids, terpenes, color,…)
What part of the plant do desired metabolites occur? Glandular Trichome
What is the effect of light on glandular trichrome production? Quality=Spectra ( wavelengths ) and Quantity( umol, PPFD) to enhance or suppress metabolite products or biosynthetic pathways.
Cite an example of specific effect. UV on metabolic content.
How so? Plants evolve in environments, so ALTITUDE ( Afghanistan) and LATITUDE ( Thailand) have different UV environments. Further plants in addition to Chlorophyll A and B have a receptor UV R8 that absorbs UV which then triggers a transcriptional response. Therefore, supplementing UV to 'broad spectra' should increase Cannabinoid content during reproductive stage.
Given your statements below, what should a grower plan in lighting strategy? Historically, and specifically in the Netherlands – control systems are stable with progress on all Factors on Plant Growth advancing at a predictable tempo. A grower should plan light strategy around environmental control and room geometry. Next, plan CAPEX and OPEX before bankruptcy. O:)
Does U of Mississippi study alter your perspective on cannabis grow? No, and no army of PHDs recreating the study either. The difficulty is that Photosynthetic effects are measured using 4 factors measured in Pn, Wue, CO2 efficiency ( Ci/Ca), etc.
One can derive the same results in similar controlled conditions by understanding the mechanisms of stomatal control using wavelength manipulations. Stomata is gateway to CO2, transpiration which then relates to VPD/rH, Pn , stress to elicit or suppress desired products. So understand that 'green' or broad spectra can negate specific effects of 'PAR" spectra.
So use science- the tobacco and tomato growers do.
Light/Photons- umol, PPFD produce carbon molecules that produce carbs ( 6 C ) and terpenes ( multiples of 5 C) , right? So the 'market' values terpenes such as Limonene, Diterpenes like dihydroleucodine /taxol/ cancer, Sesquiterpenes- Pentalenolactone ( antibiotic), Gossypol ( anti-cancer) from the Mevalonate Pathways, right? I cite- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mevalonate_pathway.
Further by examining PS I that is 'coupled ' to Calvin Cycle for multiple cycles to generate 6C products/substrates at P680 and P700 states, what quantities do phytochrome, cryptochrome, anthocyanins, flavonoids utilize of BROAD SPECTRA or GREEN LIGHT to produce 5C terpenes?
I'll agree that 5C products are derived from nucleic transcriptions. So I have no issue with genetics responding to environmental conditions.
By the way, does Chlorophyll B have an RC ( Reaction Center) like Chlorophyll A so that 700nM wavelengths are coupled to Calvin Cycle to produce carbs?
I guarantee that tobacco scientists know 2ndary metabolic pathways. Why ? the FDA regulates a $100 B+ market.
These are cool people. Could you have Neil touch on "light weaponry" and our own human response to…led street lighting? and damage cause to the eye/ brain function.